College Counterpoints

Gary (00:01.774)
Hey, it's May 9th, 2024 time for another episode of College Counterpoints. My name is Gary Stocker. And I'll be honest, there almost wasn't a podcast today. And as my host and good friend, Joseph Pellerito, we'll talk about here in a minute, we started our prep work earlier today and we both are coming to that increasingly disconcerting concern, Joseph, that this industry is in trouble.

and this fall Dr. Pellerito looks particularly problematic.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:37.297)
Yeah, agreed. Good to see you, Gary. But unfortunately, you're right. The patient is in trouble. And when we look at the data, both quantitatively, especially, but also qualitatively, there's a lot to be concerned about. And so while you're right, we try to make this entertaining and interesting for our listeners. We've got a serious problem on our hands and it's it's pervasive across the country.

Gary (01:05.806)
Indeed, indeed. Well, for today, we're sticking with our regular format. We've got a couple of topics that we want to talk about. And as you may have noticed in previous podcasts, Joseph and I don't always agree, but we like to think that we model the proper way to disagree on really important topics across the higher education spectrum. And Joseph, the first topic today is the future of online learning. Many have written about this. Many have talked about this.

And I guess I'm going to open this up with an example from this past weekend. I was grading finals for the course, one of the courses I teach here in the St. Louis area. And in this particular course, I have a lot of essay questions on my final and other exams. And I know as I read through many of those responses that my students had taken my question, plugged it into their favorite AI engine and given me response. Maybe they edited a little bit, maybe they didn't. And I wonder if that's...

something that's either good Joseph or bad in the context of the future of online learning.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:09.393)
Well, you know how I feel about AI, Gary. I think it's an amazing tool. It's upon us. And as academics, we need to figure out now how to both model for our students the best practices in terms of using AI, but also how we can promote its use.

I don't, and I've said this in the past, if I have to dig a hole, I don't want to use my hands necessarily to do it unless I'm on a beach somewhere with my kids when they were little. But other than that, I want to use a tool that's going to give me efficiency and AI is exactly that tool. I think it's really got great potential.

Gary (02:51.919)
Yeah, yeah. And again, this is one of those where we agree in some aspects. And I think we've talked about this before. You and I both know that there will be faculty members at many institutions and not almost all that will jump on our respective heads to suggest that AI would be a sufficient resource with which to answer test questions. Agree or disagree?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:13.969)
Well, you know, it's like a calculator. If I need to figure out a complex math problem, as I've said before, I'm going to use a calculator. I'm not going to use a pencil and a piece of paper. But really there's, there's another issue with online learning that I think is probably more pressing than, than even AI. And that is there's still an assumption that online learning is comparable to bricks and mortar traditional face -to -face learning.

even among many faculty, they think they can just simply take what they've done in the classroom, put it online and it's equal. And that's not necessarily true. You know, we need to follow protocols that are appropriate, that are proven as best practice. For example, Quality Matters is a great organization. It promotes...

best practices in online learning and every faculty member should be required in my opinion to go through that training and to be more effective in terms of online learning. Why is that important? I'll tell you. It's interesting. I think schools are beginning to shift their thinking in terms of understanding they need to open up their catchment areas. They need to bring in...

you know, prospective students from a much broader geographic area. And how do you do that without requiring people to move to where you're at? Well, you offer online courses and programming and such. And so with that said, it's important that we really emphasize that there are best practice related to online learning. And just a lot of schools don't really do it very well, to be honest.

Gary (04:57.102)
And I want to go back to my example case and the students using AI to answer my essay questions. And I'm OK with that because even if they don't read the AI responses, I've made them think about the question. And graduate students is all I teach. And my over, if I have a teaching philosophy, I want them to show me that they can think right or wrong. I want them to show me that they can think. And so using that AI response, I have zero issues with that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (05:25.457)
Yeah, I think combining AI, for example, with let's say another application, Grammarly, I've seen it really help improve students writing. One of the things that we've just constantly been dealing with over the years is poor writing skills. And so if we can use technologies to help our students and we can provide them with, you know, model for them the pathway to follow, it...

It's good. I don't agree that students shouldn't read the output from AI because you know, you get hallucinations and other things from AI that can be pretty pretty out there and it's it's fairly obvious that it's AI. And so no, I think I think we need to. We need to encourage our students that they they've got to read what's being. What's being generated and then and then work with that. It's it's not. It's not the end all.

And I was joking the other day with a colleague of mine. I feel like when I'm talking to chat GPT I'm talking to a really smart 16 year old Gemini has improved now and so maybe they're like an 18 year old, but it's still Lacking it's still not perfect and it needs needs input obviously

Gary (06:44.43)
You've got me looking at Gemini. And one final thing before I move on to our second topic. And if a student composes their answer to my essay questions on their own, they're going to get the same points, provided it's reasonably close, as a student who does AI. But you know what the differentiation is? And I try and make this point to my students. If you think it through on your own, it's going to show up in your job. It's going to show up in the thing for which you're compensated for. If you're using AI and just want to copy paste,

You can have the three credits, you can have the A or B or whatever you earn in that class, but I would offer that those who think through on their own are gonna have a distinct advantage in the marketplace as they move from the first part of their career on through other phases as well.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (07:24.497)
Well, and it's also about doing, you know, for OTs, occupational therapists and other healthcare providers, at the end of the day, understanding concepts, the proof of concept is in your ability to do, to do the thing that you're talking about. And so just simply, you know, regurgitating something that AI has created isn't going to help you when it comes to, you know, competency in your job performance. So you're absolutely right.

Gary (07:53.134)
So our second topic is Open Educational Resources, OER. And Joseph, I've looked at that, but man, there was a lot of work involved to move from the standard textbook to OER. What are your thoughts on that?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:07.121)
Well, first of all, I think it's a good thing. I think we need to have open educational resources for across the board, irrespective of age and so forth. It's in some ways like open architecture in computing.

Gary (08:32.622)
I had an ice cube in my mouth, I'll have to edit that out.

Gary (08:40.558)
Because when you look at these OERs, if that becomes more widespread, it will have an impact on textbooks in general and textbook manufacturers, authors in general. I don't know how anybody generates a revenue stream behind OERs. Maybe they charge for it or not. I'm not sure. And even like I teased about, not even teased, I was serious about it. It's a lot of work involved to take something from a textbook manufacturer. Let's give them credit.

They do a good job of providing outlines and stuff you can use questions to ask, quizzes to offer, all those kind of things. And I'm comfortable with the concept. I don't know how quickly that becomes implemented even in the changing market that we're in.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (09:26.865)
Yeah, well, you know, open source is important. I started an open source journal many years ago. I'm no longer affiliated with it. But the reason why I did it was because I felt like, you know, the pathways for publishing knowledge are narrow and they're guarded. There's pay walls and so forth. But at the end of the day, I think knowledge should be accessible to everybody and we need to make it more.

accessible and we need opportunities for people to be able to publish more routinely than what the current pathways offer. And so yeah, I'm all for open source. I think when MIT years ago went on the record and said, hey, we're going to go open source with everything we publish, I thought it was incredible. And I think that others ought to follow suit.

Gary (10:22.99)
This story number one, and this was out a few weeks ago now, the 2024 Inside Higher Education Survey of College Presidents. Andy and I looked at this in our pre -broadcast preparation. And I've probably said this in our forum before. And I worry based on the results of this survey, we're not going to go into the individual survey components that leaders of our colleges, both public and private, but maybe a little bit more so private.

cannot see the proverbial forest because of the proverbial trees, Joseph.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:01.489)
Well, you know, I think we're in agreement that college presidents and other leaders, board members and so forth are fairly isolated from the public. The messaging that's delivered publicly is often highly tailored, manicured and prepped. And what we need is more transparency. You and I talk about this every week.

especially presidents that are at the helm of schools that are in trouble. We always say the same thing, that we don't want a self -fulfilling prophecy, but I don't think that really applies because I think schools that are in trouble know they're in trouble. And it's really a matter of ethics. I'll say it. It's a matter of ethics to...

sort of boldly go where no presidents have gone before, which is to say, hey, we're in trouble, but here's our pathways that we're working to follow. And we have begun to see some of that now, where schools are looking for consolidation or fundraising or a combination of the two. At the same time, they're working on teach -out agreements.

with sister institutions or with other institutions that may not necessarily be related. That's the process that should be followed.

Gary (12:35.79)
And one of the things I think you and I can do better as we continue the College Counterpoint series is on the constructive side. And I'm more guilty of this than you are. I poke the bear with the higher education leadership, board of directors and faculty a lot, and you're much nicer to the world. Kudos to you for that. But I think when we look at, and maybe you and I need to do a little bit more of this, when you look at that constructive component, I can offer some.

to college leaders, and I've done this through all my media for a few years now, is it's the data that matters. It's the data that should give you courage. You heard me say, Joseph, we are in the moneyball era, the old Oakland Athletics story from a decade or so ago, in higher education. The data's out there. That's how, in part, how I make a living, taking data and making it readable and analyzable for all sorts of college stakeholders. And even something that the federal government provides, a college navigator.

While it's not as comprehensive and as long -term in comparisons as my college viability app, it lets students see.

Gary (13:46.446)
It lets students see if a college has five journalism majors or 50 journalism majors. Joseph, if you're running a college that has five journalism majors, dude, I think that's a program in danger of being cut when finances go bad.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (14:04.497)
Yeah, no, I agree, Gary. I think many of the majors today that have been traditionally offered, we know that they're at risk of being cut. And so you've got this multiple layers of concern, right? You have the concern that if a school in general is in trouble, they could close. And we know that half of those students don't end up returning.

That's a big issue, but drilling down even deeper, you're right. There's certain programs that are traditional liberal arts programs, for example. I believe in those. I believe in a liberal arts education, but I also understand that they're at risk for being closed. Languages, journalism, you mentioned, and there's among others. The problem is that, you know,

From 2004 to 2020, 80 % of the schools that closed, Gary, were private, private for -profit. Now, since 2020, there have been at least 56 public and non -profit colleges that have closed or merged or announced closures. And that...

That's alarming. So we've shifted from for -profit closures over a couple of decades now to non -profits and even publics at times are in trouble. So that's a concern. The patient is in trouble and yeah, we've got to find ways to be more constructive in terms of what can we recommend to help? And I'm not necessarily certain what that is.

Gary (15:33.102)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gary (15:51.086)
I'm going to use the number of students impacted. And there was a data point, I remember what it was from, through April of this year, 41 ,000 students had been enrolled at colleges that have closed. I don't remember the timeframe, five or six years, something like that. And the number of 50 % is generally accepted. 50 % of those, so 20 ,000 plus, will not likely set foot in a college again. They'll have whatever expenses they had associated with going to college to date.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:15.377)
Yes.

Gary (16:20.494)
There's a human factor. I've talked about this before. There's a human factor involved in that. But even though the final version of our podcast is audio only, you can see me on the video. And so you can testify I'm raising my right hand and I'm going to pledge to work more on the constructive part for college leaders, for faculty, for stakeholders of all sorts. I don't know that they're going to like the constructive offerings that I have, but you're right, Joseph. I need to be more constructive.

on that component and I'm going to do so.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:54.961)
Yeah, no, I agree, Gary. And we know, as you said, half of those 41 ,000, 42 ,000 students don't return. That's really tragic. We also know that seven in 10 of those students impacted by a college closure experienced an abrupt closure. That's 70%. Abrupt, I'm not sure how the source that I'm looking at defines abrupt. I think it's the same semester.

you know, students here, hey, we're in trouble, we're closing at the end of the semester. That's just not right. There's gotta be, you know, just, if you were working for an employer, there's an accepted sort of standard of practice, right, that you're gonna give your employer, even at Starbucks, two weeks notice, right? I would argue that.

students ought to be given a year's notice, a year. Faculty and staff as well. We talk about the impact on the families and students and their families, but there's staff and faculty that are affected as well. And so, yeah, where does that leadership have to start? Well, it starts at the top, right? That includes provosts and presidents, deans.

board members, folks that are in the know. And I'm going to say one other group that probably knows maybe before any of even those individuals know, and those are the CFOs in these institutions that are tracking this stuff in terms of the quantitative data over time.

Gary (18:33.646)
Yeah, yeah. So Joseph, go and take us out to the Northland thing and we'll go from there.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:39.857)
Yeah, so Gary, I know that we're gonna talk about Northland College again, and I know that you like to talk about, just like the Disney movie Frozen, let it go, let it go. You've talked about turning the lights off yourself and such, but I've gotta tell ya, I think Northland College has at least communicated a plan, and so I give them credit for that. They're trying.

Gary (19:07.726)
Well, this will be a short conversation, Dr. Pellerito, because that's all I've got. And I'll let you take us out from there. This is not this is this is an example how not to close a college. You mentioned short notice college closures. Well, even if the good folks at North and decide this week to close the college, it's still short notice. They have just been stringing along their students, faculty, staff and community for now heading on two months.

I look at the data, you know, I look at the data. There's very few people in this country that look at college financial enrollment and outcome data than I do. Don't tell anybody this Joseph Northland cannot make it. And even this week's announcement that they have a transformational gift, which they refuse to define the amount of who it was from or what it was for, will keep them going. All right. Well, they also noticed announced in that same announcement that they're going from 24 majors.

to eight and then we commenced with faculty cutbacks in the same along those same lines.

Gary (20:14.222)
they're going to have little to offer a smaller number of students who are already going to look at Northland College. And we talked about this in our pre -prep, in our pre -podcast prep. There's already a move from privates to publics. And do you think for one second, Northland College leadership that the community, your region is not looking at this and say, no way in blankety blank will I choose this college? There are too many closing and Joseph, they are going to be next.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (20:43.473)
I think everything you're saying is true, Gary. The one thing we just don't know though, and I don't know, I'll admit is I don't know how robust their alumni association is. I know that they tried to raise 12 million and they only raised 1 .5. You're right, it doesn't look good. I do feel badly for them though, because they do have a long tradition there and they're trying to save it. And I wish there was a formula they could follow to do so, but I think I have to agree with you. It doesn't look good.

Listen, this was fun today, Gary. I appreciate the time and the opportunity to have our ongoing conversation. And I want to thank you for being here today. So on behalf of Gary Stocker, I'm Joseph Pellerito Jr. Take care, everybody.