College Counterpoints

Gary (00:02.622)
Yes, college counterpoints for February 8th, 2024. Hi, I am Gary Stocker. Welcome back to another episode. And I'm joined by my increasingly good friend, Dr. Joseph Peralito. Joseph, you're up.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:16.403)
Hey Gary, it's good to see you. And today's episode I'm excited to share is sponsored by College Viability App. The 2024 College Viability App is now available. Students, parents, college faculty and staff, college leaders, and community stakeholders are all in need of this resource. I gotta tell ya.

to be able to easily compare the financial health of colleges. Versions of the 2024 app are custom designed for each of those groups to make the appropriate comparisons. And I've got to tell you, I got to see the app thanks to you, Gary. And I am truly excited about this tool. I'm gonna be using it personally in my work. And I know many of our listeners are gonna benefit greatly from it. So thanks to College Viability App as one of our primary sponsors today.

Let's talk about today's topic. And the first topic is rethinking distance education, high flex, low residency models. You know, the evolution of distance education into high flex, low residency formats, Gary, coupled with semesterly immersive experiential opportunities on the ground, I believe it represents a shift in higher education. You know, one of the positives that came out of COVID, not many positives did, but one of them,

taught us that you know what? How and where we work and learn can be very different than what we've been used to in the past. What do you think?

Gary (01:51.122)
Well, I will grant that doing things differently is important. A lot of the work that I focus on in higher education is just that, but I gotta start with the story, Joseph, and this flex stuff in theory, and it may be some limited cases has value, but I'm gonna share my story. And of course, during the COVID period, I, like most other faculty, taught online courses. And one of mine, as we got out of the COVID period, the acute COVID period, was a flex course.

So the students could be in the classroom, they could be live on Zoom, or they could listen to the recorded version. Here's how it went for every class that I taught Joseph. The first night I might have out of a enrollment of 25, give or take, I might have five or six in the classroom. The second week maybe one or two, and then online each week, you know, three or four or five live online. And the remaining 15 or 20 were never there in real time. Most of them did the homework.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:25.259)
I'm going to go ahead and start the presentation. So I'm going to start with the presentation.

Gary (02:48.638)
They really did. They did the homework and they did fine on the tests. So toward that end, they got what they wanted. But I have to think that almost all faculty provide some value above and beyond just creating the content. And that real live face-to-face interaction adds an element of value that's very difficult to quantify. And I'm guessing just on my experience, Joseph, that these students, like all of us, they were engaging in taking the route that offered the least friction.

Nothing wrong with that. That was an option given to them. But you know, if you and I provide additional perspective, and I worry about this, those students that didn't attend the live version, either in the classroom or online, didn't get it.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:18.649)
I think that's a great way to start a conversation.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:31.878)
Well, I couldn't disagree more, Gary. I think today technology is really blossoming and it's so exciting. What Beyond Hybrid models give us is an opportunity for people, no matter where they are geographically, to plug in and to be a part of the learning process. I'm telling you, we talk a lot about small privates struggling with

you know, not only retention, but also recruitment. And this model is one answer to that question, I believe. I think it's superior. And, you know, I'm not talking so much about undergraduate students who really do need on-ground kind of campus life experiences and all that. But most graduate students that I know, they really care about three things. One is time to completion. How quickly can I get my degree?

so that I can start earning money and provide for my family. Two, they care about the quality, but they also care about accessibility. And what a hybrid program offers is, hey, I can learn asynchronously when I'm ready to learn. I can also plug in synchronously and have that kind of interaction that's important in the learning process. But beyond that, I don't have to hassle with commuting and the rest of it. So, you know,

I really think that as technology improves, and it already has, look at Zoom, look at, you know, Apple's, their new pro, we're gonna have to cut that out. I'm forgetting the name of it. Apologize. First, first flub. Start over. When we think about the advanced technology, you know, Zoom has improved.

and all the other video platforms, as well as some of the technology that's going to bring virtual reality to the forefront. Learning virtually is not even the future, Gary, it's the present, and I couldn't be more excited about it.

Gary (05:40.606)
You know, that's all right. And first of all, I'm just continually pleased that I have self-esteem, enough self-esteem to withstand your constant disagreements with me. I hope just on infrequent occasion, Joseph, you might start off as saying, Gary, you're right. But so be it. But here's a bigger picture issue. And again, you make some good points and I'm keeping score over here like I always do in our podcast, but there's some utility, there's some value. But are we creating two universes of learners?

those that rely exclusively and solely on the technology, and those that see some value in what that live, experienced, educated instructor are providing. You know, a quick sidebar story, you know why we always go to McDonald's? Because the cheeseburgers are always made the same way. You're suggesting a way that McDonald's makes two different kinds of cheeseburgers, one with white cheese and one with orange cheese. I don't know what the differences are, and Joseph, you're not right.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (06:40.539)
Well, let me tell you something, Gary. I'm going to go back to my statement about the two things people care about, accessibility and time to completion. But there is a third, right? And it's cost.

And virtual programs can also reduce cost for both the institution as well as the learner. So that's another reason why, you know, we can maintain quality in terms of the, you know, content being delivered. We can deliver it in dynamic ways, whether it's asynchronously with students learning when they're ready to learn on their own or synchronously when they're plugged in. But if it's cheaper to do so and we get

the same outcomes or even better outcomes in terms of, let's say, students who complete my program and then end up passing the national board exam, those rates are equal to traditional on-ground programs. So there's just too many points that support the idea that beyond hybrid learning, it's time has come. We've gotta go in all in on this and it's gonna help the smaller

Privates especially.

Gary (07:52.65)
And you've got the next topic that you want to talk about, Joseph, and I'll let you get that started.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (07:57.622)
Yeah, well, you know, Gary, mental health support on college campuses is what we're going to talk about. And really, this is a topic that's extraordinarily important. The escalating mental health crisis among college students, you know, marked by a surge in cases of anxiety, depression and other mental health challenges, has really catapulted the need for enhanced mental health services to the forefront of higher education discussions.

So I want to talk about that today because I believe that we need an all-in approach to mental health care for students on and off campus. And I think, you know, colleges need to really invest a lot more time and energy to follow best practices in that regard.

Gary (08:47.806)
Edit a note after we get done with this section, I'm going to do the Harmony Cube.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:51.934)
Yeah, I was, yeah.

Gary (08:57.962)
I don't question for one second, Dr. Pellarito, the need for mental health. Not for one millisecond do I question that. I see it in some of the classes, most of the classes, maybe all the classes. There is a level of unpreparedness. There is a level of maturity, not in every student by any stretch, but enough students that it's easy to note that concern. And Josephine and I have talked about this offline. I don't know that even if colleges, private or public, could afford

the level of mental health that you're suggesting, if they have the right skill sets to do that. I just don't know.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (09:38.023)
Yeah, well, you know, first of all, let me talk about this for a minute because it's important mental illness encompasses, you know, a wide range of mental health conditions that affect mood thinking and behavior.

certainly aren't limited to students with depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders, addictive behaviors, and the list goes on. These are our colleagues, these are our children, these are our mothers and fathers that we're talking about, these are human beings that we should all be concerned about. It's crucial to understand the mental illnesses are common and treatable.

And with many individuals experience these challenges at some point in their lives. So with the prevalence of mental health issues among college students in the US, the fact that it's been rising, it's really reaching an epidemic proportion, Gary, and we've got to do something about it. Thankfully, thankfully there are a number of pathways we can follow and best practices that have been laid out by.

some really amazing organizations. And I think that's a great place to start.

Gary (10:52.862)
Let's go back to the point that I made and you, you know, skipped over the good point that I made. Matter of fact, I can give myself two tallies for that. And I pointed out, and I'm interested in your response to this, that, well, are we not looking in significant part at an issue of maturity and college preparedness? And as a follow-up, can we not reasonably suggest that maybe too many students are either going to college or in college that aren't mentally prepared?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:23.522)
Well, you know, that's a good point. But let me tell you, you're a numbers guy, so I'm going to give you some numbers. 70% of students surveyed and really solid surveys in 2022 experienced moderate serious psychological distress.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:47.454)
a diagnosis of anxiety and a third were diagnosed with depression. I mean, these are epidemic proportions. These are real. Now, does this preclude those individuals to answer your question from participating in the academic process? Absolutely not. You know, I've had many students that have had an amazing trajectory and then they may have a semester or two where they have a real downward trend because of a life event.

or yes, sometimes mental health challenges and so forth. It's up to us as educators and as society to rally around those individuals to help them get back on track. There's nothing better, Gary, than to see someone recover from a challenge and go on to become a productive citizen.

someone who joins the workforce and makes a difference in the world. I don't want to sound too Pollyanna about this because mental health can be can be traumatic and challenging and very difficult to overcome. But with the right infrastructure in place, colleges, universities, schools are in a great position to make a huge difference. And you know,

It's not just about teaching, it's about mentoring our students and helping them become, you know, the kinds of professionals that we all want them to be. So, you know, when we look at things like trauma and obsessive compulsive disorders, bipolar disorders, these are things that are treatable, but there's still a stigma associated with those kinds of labels.

Gary (13:39.134)
And I'm going to step back for a second and talk about one of our other sponsors. Harmony Cubed. In today's relentless rush, it's easy to lose touch with what truly matters, our health. Harmony Cubed, that's Harm is your gateway to reclaiming wellness, offering practical solutions and support for a healthier you. Start your journey toward a revitalized life with us. Your path to health reimagined.

Restored begins now. And Joseph, as you know, we're gonna start adding new stories to our back and forth on college counterpoints. And there's a couple that crossed our desk today that we wanna talk about, crossed our desk in the past week.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (14:21.955)
Gary, I'm sorry to do this to you. I got to get these other recommendations, these other resources in before we shift. Can we do that?

Gary (14:35.13)
OK, hang on. So go ahead and add those. Say start. When you're ready, start. That will give me a word to search for. And then I will go and add that section. I can make it work.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (14:47.33)
Can you lead in by saying, well, what resources are we talking about and wouldn't they cost, et cetera? And I'm going to talk about, no, these are free services that are available.

Gary (15:02.082)
and action, start. And what kind of cost are we talking about? What kind of services are you talking about, Joseph?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:09.57)
Well, you know, Gary, there are a number of really amazing organizations that universities can tap into if they're not familiar with them and individuals as well, and, you know, families and so forth. First of all, we really need to advocate for development of a holistic support system that integrates academic advising, counseling, peer support, and wellness programs. Those are already existing at the university level.

We need preventative education and awareness. We need to implement campus-wide initiatives to educate students about mental health, reducing stigma and encouraging early intervention. And you know, we can work with student groups to get the word out. And that's something that's already in place on campuses across the country. Accessibility and inclusivity. We need to ensure mental health services are accessible to all students, including those in distance education.

programs throughout telehealth services and online resources. And so crisis intervention and support. We need 24-7 emergency contacts and on-campus support for immediate assistance. So what are some of the key resources? National Alliance on Mental Illness, or NAMI. This organization, Gary, if you're not familiar with them, I love these folks. They are amazing. And they offer educational programs and support

groups for individuals struggling with mental health issues. Active Minds is a nonprofit organization supporting mental health awareness and education for students. There's a crisis text line. It provides free 24-7 confidential text support for people in crisis. You text home to 741-741.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:58.594)
The JED Foundation, J-E-D works to prevent suicide and protect the mental health of teenagers and young adults. And finally, Headspace is an app offering meditation and mindfulness practices to reduce stress and improve overall mental health, along with HarmonyCube.com. So yeah, these are all three resources that every institution should be pursuing.

Gary (17:26.377)
There are a couple of news stories out this week, Dr. Pellerito, that I wanted to discuss with our listeners. And one is from Mike Nitzel, Nitzel at Forbes. And his headline reads that three more major universities reveal plans for budget cuts. Now these three were Penn State, I think they have good football there. Their deficit was 140 million. UConn had a deficit of 70 million. And New Hampshire, the University of New Hampshire.

was in the $14 million deficit range and was looking at laying off 75 employees. And I don't remember the mix and match. Here's what concerns me. And as you know, on this week in college viability, each week I lead off with layoffs and cutbacks. And these all made the most recent episode of this week in college viability. If it's happening at the Biggies, if it's happening at Penn State with good football, if it's happening at UConn with good basketball, and if it's happening at the University of New Hampshire with good something, I don't know what that is for sports.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:54.108)
I think that's a great way to start a conversation. So I think that's a great way to start a conversation. I think that's a great way to start a conversation.

Gary (18:22.018)
I really, really worry that the trickle dead, this is more evidence that this industry is in deeper peril from the biggies to the much, much smallers. And I just, I worry that if we have too much more of this, there's gonna be a sequence of events that spins out of control in terms of finances and colleges being able to fulfill their mission.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:46.582)
Yeah, well, you know, I can't disagree with you, Gary. I think it is symptomatic of something that may be more ominous to come. What I'm hopeful, though, is that institutions are not using that same old formula which basically goes something like when there's trouble with the budget, it's human beings that are cut first. That's typically the reflex move.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (19:15.942)
universities, colleges, institutions need to look at efficiencies. And they also need to think out of the box in terms of how they're delivering their primary product, which is what? Education. And again, it circles back to, you know, I believe distance education, when it's thoughtfully produced, can help open their catchment areas and hopefully improve their revenue in terms of...

of their delivered services. I also think that the other challenge is that many of the programs that are cut at these institutions are the traditional liberal arts programs. And I think that's a shame. I think that there's value in those liberal arts programs and a liberal arts education. I still believe in it, even though I know that's sounding a little outdated.

Gary (20:13.906)
And Joseph, you shared with me before that you follow a lot of my stuff, and I believe you. And so you all heard me at some point say that whenever any college does even the most minor, even suggests the most minor of cutbacks, for example, they want to cut lower enrollment sections. Almost without exception, there's a faculty protest of some sort. Matter of fact, the silliest one I ever heard was one here this week where there was a silent protest at a major university here in the Midwest. I don't know what that accomplishes.

But change the business model, there's a protest. And higher ed is not the only industry that has ever laid off people. It's the higher ed, it's the market responding to decreased demand and a large supply. And we've talked about the supply and demand issue before. There are, there have been, we know, layoffs and cutbacks. There will continue to be layoffs and cutbacks. And it's just a function of basic economics.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:13.611)
Yeah, well, I have to agree with you there. That's very true.

the economic argument is a strong one and it's reality. But in fairness to the faculty, I think they're probably trying to be, and I don't know this for a fact, but they're probably trying to be creative in getting their message out. And perhaps they think through silence, it may have a greater effect. It's creative, I'll give them that, right? And...

Gary (21:40.11)
I want to see that work. Silence works. All right. How would you know it's a protest, Joseph, if they're silent?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:42.942)
Yeah, you know it's.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:48.77)
Yeah, I don't know, maybe pantomime it, I'm not sure. But I think it's really about individuals who have skin in the game and they have passion about what they do. And so I respect that. I may not agree with it necessarily, but I respect that they're passionate enough to get involved and express their thoughts in some creative way. But I think...

Yeah, you're right, Gary. The economics is really driving many changes across the country. And in reality, we've got to, as institutions, work through this. And one way to work through it is to use the data and understand the data. And that's why, again, I'm looking forward to using the app that you've developed, the College Viability app, because it's going to help me in terms of my own analysis of where I'm at.

with the work that I'm doing.

Gary (22:47.774)
And then the last story we want to talk about, and we're running short on time today, is from Audrey Williams June, and this was in the Chronicle this week. And it's a story that's been percolating for the last year or two. And her headline reads that flagships are enrolling more and more freshmen from out of state. And I'll read a little bit from her story. She says, nearly every public flagship enrolled a smaller share of freshmen from within their states in 2022 than they did 20 years earlier. Now,

As I talked about in this week, this week, this is a big story. It starts to firm up the reasonable speculation that more students are looking at public colleges, maybe in their state, more importantly, out of their state, than has historically been the case. It's not definitive yet. And don't think that I'm saying it's a done deal because I don't know that that's the case. But here's what I worry about. If we are in the early stages or even later,

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (23:22.698)
I'm going to turn it over to you. Thank you.

Gary (23:45.158)
in the mix of a Margaret migration from private colleges to public colleges, what will be the impact on higher education in general?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (24:01.304)
I think that's a good question.

wising up and they're now not requiring out-of-state tuition. Some of them have gone to, you know, in the old days they would have the states that border their state have sort of this in-state arrangement and now they've expanded it because they want to expand their catchment area. It's smart. Many students want to have an out-of-state college experience, especially undergraduate students.

graduate students, it's a different story, but the undergrads, I can understand it. And so, yeah, the public schools have a real advantage over the smaller privates for lots of reasons, but.

Gary (24:45.958)
Here's another way. Look at that. Your point is well made that they're lowering their tuition, but then are we not starting to look at a Walmart trend where everybody looks to be the low price college and what are the consequences of lower and lower revenues because you want to be the low cost college? I'll let you wrap up this discussion.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (25:05.31)
Yeah, absolutely a domino effect and that's why, again, we'll talk about in the near term, you and I will talk about consolidation and why I'm not for consolidation. I don't want that big box Amazonification of higher ed that we've had in the retail sector. I just don't. I think diversity is better. I'm all for mom and pops.

Small privates are the mom and pops and the bigger publics are the big box. So yeah, I say diversity is better, especially in higher ed.

Gary (25:42.802)
We know what you, let's wrap up this episode of College Counterpoints. And I did the tally, Joseph, and we were tied at five to five until you said that you didn't like consolidation. So I took away one point.

So I win for the third week in a row, I win the tally of good points. Did we tie last week? Okay, well, you were so close to tying again this week. And I know we had that on our agenda to talk in future weeks and it will be fascinating because as you know, I'm a big, big proponent of big, big consolidation, but that's a story for another day. Hey, it's another episode. It's another episode of College Counterpoints. I'm with Dr. Joseph Pellerito. My name is Gary Stalker and some side notes. We will include links to the mental health services.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (26:00.863)
I think we tied last week.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (26:16.246)
Looking forward to it.

Gary (26:26.542)
Dr. Pellerito talked about, along with all the other show notes that we include for each and every episode. Again, for Gary Stocker, I am Gary Stocker. For Joseph Pellerito, we'll talk to you next week.