College Counterpoints

Gary (00:01.815)
Welcome to College Counterpoints. My name is Gary Stocker and I'm joined with, joined by Joseph Pellerito as we talk about all sorts of college topics. We take positions, we take sides, we entertain, we educate. And Joseph, today, first of all, welcome back.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:18.818)
Thank you, Gary. It's good to be back.

Gary (00:21.335)
And second, we've got three topics on our agenda today. Let me just lay those out in advance. We'll talk about accreditation. Joseph thinks it's a really good thing. I may have some concerns. We're gonna talk about free college for all. We have a story that has been getting a lot of play this week about Western Oregon University. Won't continue toward Ds and Fs in their students. And we'll talk about that as well. And Joseph, accreditation, good thing, bad thing.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:47.694)
Well, you know, Gary, I've worked with the creditors for years and I got to tell you, I know it's not a perfect scenario, but all in all, accreditation agencies, for example, the Accreditation Council for Occupational Therapy Education or ACOTE, they play a huge and important role in higher ed.

Gary (01:08.215)
Well, okay. And you know, I'm a gentle and kind human being and I don't like to take issue with anybody, sarcastically he says. In my mind, the accrediting agencies, they're not really much more than iDotters and T-Crossers. They don't really address the financial portion of the viability of colleges.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (01:17.634)
Yes.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (01:26.605)
Ouch.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (01:31.49)
Well, I can tell you firsthand, Gary, accreditors help ensure, for example, quality and programmatic excellence. You know, picture this. World where, for example, every occupational therapy program, to put it into context, operates at peak excellence. What does that mean? Well, it's not just an ideal. It's what accreditation agencies make a reality. These folks are essentially guardians of the standards.

And frankly, the unsung heroes ensuring that, you know, when it comes to preparing our students, for example, to go out and make a difference in the world, one patient at a time, accreditors help us as educators say, hey, are we achieving excellence in terms of what we're teaching students? And they use that as a way to ensure quality from program to program. I'm a big believer in accreditation, and I think it's a necessary process.

Gary (02:28.975)
So peak excellence is the word, is the phrase you just used a minute ago and

There are countless stories of private colleges in the United States, I'm just focusing on private colleges, who can't rub two nickels together to maintain any semblance of financial health and viability. How in the world can an accrediting agency think that kind of college can, to use your term, come anywhere close to peak excellence when they can't keep the boilers running, they can't keep the air conditioners going because they don't have the means to do that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:02.658)
No, I get that. I get that argument, Gary. But, you know, profitability is a really, it's a, it's a, it's another discussion. What accreditors are primarily focused on is the quality of education and, you know, whether or not a college is profitable or not may or may not correlate with the quality of programming that they're offering. In other words, you know, the creditors really help promote.

maintain our trust, the public trust in institutions because you know you've got to imagine for example someone entrusting their health in a therapist's hands. Well how do we prepare students to go out and provide the kinds of excellence, evidence-based, efficacious care if we don't have some kind of standards. We need an oversight and the oversight comes from the creditors. It's about

quality programming, not so much profitability.

Gary (04:01.839)
I had the chance to see three high-level college basketball games and one NBA game last week. And there are these people at these games called referees. And the referees in all of these sporting events don't really have a vested interest in the outcome, although some may think otherwise. But that's not really what we have with these accrediting agencies because they have a serious vested interest. Their revenue stream comes from the college's

They evaluate, their revenue stream comes from the colleges, their credit. That's a conflict of interest. Does it actually happen? I'm hard pressed to say I can document that it happens, but the risk is there for obvious reasons.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (04:31.886)
True.

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (04:45.854)
Yeah, you know, I'm boy, I was missing that cynicism and there it is. I'm glad to see that it's alive and well. You know, I kind of, I'm not so cynical, uh, Gary, I have to say, and at the risk of sell sounding Pollyanna, I think our colleagues who are in the accreditation world are professionals. They're not going to necessarily put their own, um, economic needs above what they know to be true, you know? In other words.

They're about really pushing educational programs to innovate, adapt, and excel. It's important for education programs to keep up with cutting edge advancements. And so how do we do that? Well, standards, educational standards, and the processes that accreditors put in place help ensure that programs don't run amok or run afoul of that. I can tell you, they press us to be better.

They press us, they hold the line, they hold the bar, and it's usually a pretty high standard. So no, I think in reality, accreditors help basically ensure that programs are meeting those expectations. And without the accreditors, I'm not sure how we're gonna ensure excellence in that regard.

Gary (06:06.939)
You know, I'm a little emotionally distressed. You suggested, you suggested accurately or otherwise that I might be cynical. Not the first time, probably not the last time that that's gonna happen. But let's take, let's step away from the higher education model before we move on to the next topic. And that's what markets are for. There are safety agencies for cars and computers and houses and that kind of stuff.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (06:10.562)
Yeah.

Gary (06:34.299)
But there's nobody that accredits that a Ford is better than a Toyota or a Honda. The market determines what is better or worse. And so we have these vested interest organizations, and I'll grant you the point that they are professionals. No question. But the challenge they face is if they if they don't give accreditation to most, if not all their colleges, the revenue source is at risk. And, hey, we're humans. At some point, that has to cross their mind.

Joseph, free college is in the news almost every day. And before I give you a chance to comment on what you're probably wrong about, is first of all, free college for all is a misnomer. There really is no such thing as free college for all. It's heavily subsidized college for some. Joseph.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (07:26.39)
Well, you know, Gary, free college. Right now society, the U S believes that education is efficacious. It's important for all children, for example, to attend school. We expect children to attend school. Why should that end after high school? You know, education essentially is a fundamental right and it should be a right beyond high school, just like access to.

accessible, affordable health care. Now that's another conversation, but hey, it fosters lifelong opportunities. We know that. Education does. And Gary, think about the doors that education opens, not just job opportunities, but really pathways to personal growth and enlightenment. I believe in that. So by capping education at high school and simply saying, well, we're going to go to a free market model at that point, you know, a lot of people get left behind. And so,

Pathways such as trade schools are outstanding, community colleges, but also four-year institutions, bachelor's degrees and universities, colleges, etc. should be accessible to everybody. And I, for one, as a taxpayer, would be willing to help subsidize that because I believe in it. I believe that it shouldn't be a luxury to attend school. It should be a simple fundamental right.

Gary (08:52.435)
One of the precious few things that my late mother-in-law shared that has had value for me is you get what you pay for.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (09:02.186)
Absolutely.

Gary (09:03.303)
We have, you know, we're talking to microphones, we have computer monitors, we have computers, we have phones. We paid for those and we got what we paid for. Whether we spent a lot of money or a little bit of money. And if everybody got, I use microphones, it's kind of an inert object here. Everybody got a free microphone or a heavily subsidized microphone to be more accurate. What value are they gonna place on each and every one of those items when they have no financial?

or proverbial skin in the game. And where does it stop? You mentioned that healthcare is a right. Well, maybe education is right. Yeah, arguable on both sides. If I don't have a vested interest and you give me every microphone that's out there and you give me every microphone that's out there, Joseph has no value.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (09:44.734)
I get that. Yeah, you know, Hey, right, right. You know, you can lead a horse to water, right? Gary, I hear you saying that and I agree with that, but you can't make them drink. I'm talking about people that want to be educated, that want to improve their lives, that want to improve the lives of their families and they want to be able to contribute in some meaningful way and find a career and not just a job at Starbucks. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

So education, one of the benefits is that it's an engine of economic prosperity, not only for individuals, but society in general. We invest time and money in individuals, we will have a return on that investment, undoubtedly. So here's an economic truth. The strength of a nation's workforce is directly tied to the level of its education. That's very clear. Higher education isn't just a personal benefit.

It's a national asset. So we need to breed a workforce that's skilled, adaptable, and ready to lead. And so education is a powerful way to do that. I'm all in on doing what I can to, for example, support the notion of national defense. Well, we pay taxes for our military and I love our military. Why should I feel any less passionate about supporting

a model that enables people who want to become educated to be educated. I'm not talking about forcing anyone or, you know, expecting people that don't have, as you would say, skin in the game to somehow magically find that, uh, that impetus to do what they need to do. But I'm talking about the men and women that are out there that are hungry to improve the lives of themselves and their families. And I say, I'm all in on helping them do that.

Gary (11:43.247)
You know, you use such bad examples trying to make your point. And we'll talk on the military one, Joseph. You know, you and I can't, even if we wanted to, form our own military. The military, highways, roads, public safety are something, are things that are obvious that need to be subsidized by all of us. I would make the case, and I'm sure I'm right, that education is not one of those. The value is phenomenal. My very own college viability manifesto, the first thing it says is, college is good, do it if you can.

It also says graduation rates are important and too many colleges have four year graduation rates below 50 percent. What are they doing in business? Why would I want to subsidize that? And to take the true Americana saying, as we wrap this topic up, of Chevrolet's hot dogs and apple pie. I'm willing to subsidize hot dogs, but I'm not willing to subsidize Chevrolet's and apple pie, Joseph, you pick them. Why should we should be any different for education? I'll let you finish up this topic.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:40.914)
You know, education is about equality. And, you know, I'm talking about equality with a capital E, not the politicized equality and, you know, discussion that we've gotten into now where people can't even communicate about it. But it is about social equality. You know, imagine a society where your future isn't dictated by your background or by your limitations. Extending education as a right is a powerful equalizer. I believe in that.

It's not just about fairness. It's about giving, you know, everyone the chance to write their own success story, to write their own comeback story, if you will, no matter where they start from. And it may sound Pollyannaish to some, but I believe in that. And ultimately, when it comes to diversity, I don't want to listen to a single note when I'm listening to a song. I want a full octave of notes. And, uh, and that's what it's really about. And I think we can do it. I think we'll have a return on our investment beyond.

what we can imagine if we could just get behind this notion.

Gary (13:42.167)
And to our listeners, we're going to be adding more and more higher education news stories in the coming College Counterpoints podcast. And again, these are done every Thursday and posted Thursday evenings usually, because there are general topics like we've talked about, accreditation and free college for all, Joseph. But there's a lot of stories out there that I think can use yours and my approach to arguing both sides of what goes on. So to the listeners, we're going to be adding some combination of those and including those in the future series of podcasts.

on college counterpoints. And the one we're going to start with this week is Western Oregon University. It came out earlier this week, or late last week, I guess it was. Western Oregon University, Joseph, won't award Ds and Fs. Let me read you the quote. Under a new policy that intends to increase retention rates, Western Oregon University will mark no credit for students who fail or get Ds or Fs, I guess, on a course. They'll have to retake failed courses to meet D requirements.

I'm sorry, to meet degree requirements. But the no credit mark won't change grade point averages. The university's provost period concerns about grade inflation by saying, standards are rising because students won't be able to pass classes with a D minus. Goodness gracious, Dr. Pellegrino, help me out here.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:03.812)
You know at first I recoiled but then I thought about it. I think it's an amazing idea. I think it's a great idea Gary. And hear me out. Listen, students often are so myopic. They're so focused on grades. Did I get a B? They want to argue this point, that point, a B+, C-. I say not only do away with D's and F's but do away with grades altogether.

And go to what many schools, leading edge schools, have done, and medical schools, for example. Brown University did this decades ago. I believe MIT does it as well. I could be mistaken. But pass, fail. Look, there needs to be a minimum standard of competency that you need to demonstrate, either in your conceptual ideas or actual return demonstration of competencies that I have to be able to do as a professional.

pass or fail. Get away from being so focused on grades, B's, C's, A's, and let's get to the point of real learning. I think it's a great idea. The time has come.

Gary (16:13.263)
And as you and I shared before we started the podcast today, I commented on this on my This Week in College Viability News and Commentary. And really, I took both sides, Joseph, and I don't do that often. But the questioning side of me wonders if Oregon Western University's approach is kind of a tuition and fee maintenance tactic. If I don't get a D or F, maybe I keep paying tuition longer. And really, Joseph, what percentage of students who get a D or F?

are academically capable of getting a higher grade the next time they take the course. But on the other side.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:47.982)
That's a great question. Yeah, Gary, I think you're making actually another point in favor of this system. Look, students clearly, I look at their trajectory over time. They may have a life event that causes them to crash and burn in any given semester. And so I think for those students, especially when there's mitigating factors that can explain that dip in function to give them that opportunity to recover from that. And so...

I'm not as cynical as you again. I don't think it's about necessarily economics. I think it's about, you know, giving students the opportunity to recover from, you know, maybe a downturn in their performance. At the end of the day, we want students to persist, right? I know we agree on that. We want students to be able to graduate from the programs that they start. It's really a shame, almost criminal, that there are so many students

Gary (17:31.843)
and

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (17:45.65)
aren't able to finish for different reasons. And so I think this idea is a small but important step to say, look, it's about learning, and learning is important. This could help recalibrate our thinking in those terms.

Gary (18:04.491)
And I'll wrap up this topic with something I've shared many times before, and that is delusion. Joseph is a terrible disease and very difficult to cure. And you suggested that, you know, you're, I think paraphrasing what you said correctly, that it's not good that everything is about economics. Joseph, everything is about economics in some form or fashion. There's no way around it. But as always, Dr. Joseph Pellerito, you make some great points.

I hope with any luck I make as many as you today. I've got the score tied as four good points for me, four good points for you today. We'll see what that score looks like next week. We do the next episode of College Counterpoints for Dr. Joseph Pellerito. I'm Gary Stocker. We'll look forward to coming back with our discussions for you next week on College Counterpoints.