College Counterpoints

Gary (00:03.023)
Welcome to the February 17, 2024 College Calendar Points podcast. My name is Gary Stocker.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:10.382)
Hey Gary, and I'm Joseph Pellerito Jr. and each week we bring you back and forth discussions on higher ed news and topics. Our intent is to be informative, hopefully, but also to provide an element of levity. There's not enough two -way discussion, simply put, in our industry.

Gary (00:30.351)
And we really believe that there are too many talking heads, not just in higher education, but across all disciplines. And they only present one point of view. And they don't really explore the many facets of the issues. And Joseph and I have agreed we want to take both sides. Whether we agree or not, we take both sides just to provide that guidance. We debate. And I think we lovingly taunt. Joseph, I'm not sure you agree with that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (00:54.144)
And hopefully sometimes Gary even unlovingly, but it's all good, right? We're having fun and that gives our listeners hopefully a broader perspective and You know Gary, of course thinks he's entertaining as well We'll let you be the judge of that believe it or not Gary has started keeping score, but we'll talk about that later

Gary (01:17.327)
So topic number one, of course, we do two topics and two news stories each and every time we do the podcast. And Joseph, you're pushing this one, so I'm going to go with it. Consolidations and mergers. Let me just kind of set up my perspective, and I'd be interested in your thoughts. I think we're in two phases of the higher education industry now. We're going through a period of closures, and there has been about one private not -for -profit closure per month since about 2016. And I think that's going to continue certainly this year.

probably for another two years after that, something like that. That's educated speculation on my part. But here's the follow -up to that. I think following that period, when whatever number, so whatever substantial number of colleges close, that the following period will be one of massive consolidations and mergers. And Joseph, before I give it to you, here's why. Dr. Pellerito, every other industry throughout the course of their existence,

has engaged in substantial mergers, in substantial consolidation. Joseph, why not higher ed?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (02:22.158)
Gary, you know, I'm not gonna argue that it isn't headed in that direction, no doubt, but what I will argue is that it's not a good thing necessarily. I mean, think about any industry, look at Amazon. Sure, you have convenience for sure, and perhaps you have reduced costs, we could argue that, but you know what? If we reduce programs, consolidate, merge, whatever you wanna call it,

We're going to reduce diversity. We're going to reduce offerings to the consumer, to prospective students. And to me, that's not a good thing. I don't want to see mom and pop businesses go away. I really miss the kind of, you know, sort of boutique experience that you get with mom and pops. And also the level of service. It suffers when you're at a designer public school that's

more or less a big box experience. The loss of identity, smaller colleges are going to lose their unique identities and their heritage. That's really a shame. There's a lot of value that alumni relations and long -standing traditions, you know, bring to the table and we would lose that in any of these kinds of massive mergers that we're talking about.

Gary (03:41.199)
Well, you know, I'm glad you're really good with generalizations, Joseph, because that's really all you're looking at now. You're looking at trite generalizations that have been part of this discussion for a countless number of years. But let me just give you a simple objective guidance. You have $50. I have $20. And one of us needs to respond to take the other out for lunch. Are we going to go with the one with $20 who can't afford next to anything, or am I going to pick you?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (03:44.45)
Peace.

Gary (04:09.935)
because you have $50. You know I have the College Viability app, the 2024 private college version just went out this week. We're in an era not of generalization, sir, but of data, objective data, the moneyball era of colleges, and folks are gonna choose the financially stronger. Boutiques, unique IDs, heritage won't matter because it's a function of resources, Joseph, to provide a quality education.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (04:39.47)
I think it does matter, Gary, and especially with the $20 instead of taking you maybe to a fancy restaurant, I can bring you home for a home -cooked meal. Because that's what you're going to get with the smaller, more boutique kinds of experiences that I'm talking about. You're going to be able to impact local economies in ways that you're not going to be able to do with mergers. You're going to actually have the opposite effect on those.

I don't know about you, but when I see someone's dream, their business close, it's difficult to see, to witness. And so I believe that smaller schools, schools that might be struggling, the economic argument is only one piece. I think the value added that's there, you know, we have to look at that and we have to try and promote saving some of those schools with great traditions.

You know, we want more access to students. We want more choice. Choice is good. I don't want big box experiences that I have when I have to buy a TV to be sort of translated into the, you know, higher ed culture. I just, I don't want that. I don't think that's right. I also think that, you know, we're talking about faculty and staff and many other people will be displaced with, with mergers. That's not a good thing.

Gary (06:05.455)
And I've got this core card out, Joseph, and I gave you one point for home cooked meals, even though it's way off base. And here's why. McDonald's, you and I go to McDonald's, maybe not, but the concept will hold. People go to McDonald's because they make the cheeseburger the same way, time after time, store after store, location after location. That consistency I would offer, Joseph, is what employers want. They want to know that what they're getting is a consistent,

product and the home cooked meal is fabulous, but it's a one -off kind of thing and you can't grow a business if everybody has a different way of cooking turkey and dressing for Thanksgiving.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (06:46.702)
I want a faculty to student ratio that's reasonable. I want faculty that know my adult children's names and their stories. I want them to meet them where their stories begin and to be more than teachers. I want them to be mentors to help them grow professionally. And so you're not going to get that in the big box merger.

large acquisition kinds of scenarios that you're describing. You just simply aren't. You may have a great graduate assistant or a teaching assistant that's helping, but you know, you're not going to have that one -on -one kind of mentorship that you get at the smaller schools.

Gary (07:28.559)
And for what's worth, Joseph, I gave myself one point for the rebuttal on home cooked meals. And remember keeping scores a unilateral task that's mine only. So let's move on to another topic and it's timely topic. And it's a little bit different than what you and I regularly talk about. But there's a cultural component. Of course, we're talking about Caitlin Clark. And for those of you that don't follow, Caitlin Clark is a woman's basketball player, a senior at the University of Iowa. And she is...

What has been described by many, if not most folks, is a generational talent. Just this past week, she broke the NCAA division one, actually a whole college women's basketball record for most points scored in a career. And what's happening with Caitlin Clark is this cultural phenomenon, the generational talent. And I've often argued that sports, you know, I haven't talked about this much, though, that sports deserves maybe even a more prominent role.

in colleges because it provides some brand recognition you can't get by saying, hey, we have STEM. Well, everybody has STEM. And the smaller colleges in Division II, Division III, NAIA, it's a substantial revenue choice. And Caitlin Clark, what are your thoughts on that, Joseph?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (08:45.966)
Yeah, well, first of all, I love that, that she's getting some recognition. She deserves it. I think women's sports in particular in higher education, that's another conversation, but it deserves more attention. It deserves more resources. It deserves equity with men's sports, no doubt. But yeah, I think sports, irrespective of the division that we're talking about, gives

students an opportunity to participate. It's good for mental and physical health. It's a great economic boon for institutions. It promotes diversity and inclusion, which is, you know, I'm all in on that. It also promotes leadership, which I love. I think sports programming really helps prepare young men and women to be leaders of tomorrow. And so for all those reasons, yeah, I'm a big, big fan of

sports program. And lastly, Gary, I think campus life is really enhanced when you have a dynamic sports program like the University of Mount Union, for example, a great Division II football school that I happen to root for.

Gary (09:51.375)
Great point.

Gary (10:00.559)
And Joseph, just a quick question on this one. Many and some serious percentage of faculty, I have no idea what the number will be, say their college or colleges in general spend too much money on sports. What are your thought processes on that?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (10:16.334)
Well, you know, it's gotta be a thoughtful discussion. You have to look at what kinds of resources are going into the academic side. And as long as those programs are being supported and promoted, you know, it's hard to argue against a robust sports program, both whether it be collegiate or intramural. I think both bring a huge value added to the institution, to the culture. And so I'm not...

I don't get too upset about the kinds of resources that are spent.

Gary (10:49.551)
And let's move on to our two news stories. And the first one, don't throw anything at me. I know we're three or four states apart here and it'd be tough for you to throw anything at me. But Ashlyn Warta, W -R -A -T -A at the Martin Center for Academic Renewal, earlier this week had a headline that read, of course, the University of North Carolina at Greensboro faculty oppose academic cuts. Well, I think you and I have chatted before during our college counterpoints discussion.

that any time any college makes any business change, they change the point size on their fonts for their logo, whatever, I'm being silly, that faculty protest, you know, make a change, faculty will protest. You know, there was a college here in the last couple of weeks who the faculty had a, what do call it? A silent protest. I have no idea how you know it's a protest if it's silent, but yeah, yeah, a silent protest. And this is a sub.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (11:40.492)
Yes.

Creative.

Gary (11:48.623)
The subheading on this, according to Ms. Warcher at the Martin Center, is professorial, that's a big word, professorial self -preservation is a bad reason to put off right sizing the university. Joseph, she's really right on that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:06.318)
Well, a couple of things, Gary, I'm proud of you for being able to pronounce that word. So I give you kudos for that. Also, you, well, you, you're the unilateral keeper of, of scoring, but I'm unilaterally going to be giving you a foul on what you're saying about my colleagues and faculty. First of all, you know, silent protests or otherwise, I am all for groups of individuals that want to express their opinions.

Gary (12:12.207)
Can I have a point? Can I have a point for that?

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (12:35.918)
and there's no better place to do it than in higher education. So I'm all for that. Secondly, you know, I think the faculty should express their concerns when they see something that's a foul. My experience tells me that faculty really don't speak out maybe as much as they should, Gary. So I don't agree with you that, you know, maybe...

one small thing is a skew and faculty are up in arms. I just don't see that. I think most faculty that I know are busy helping to shape young minds and really minds of all ages now because people are coming back to school at all ages and it's wonderful. But faculty are there to do three things, to teach, to mentor, and to promote scholarship. And I think they do it well. And so when they do speak out,

I'm usually the first one that wants to listen to what they have to say. I might not always agree with it, but I think these are really bright people who have generally good hearts and good intentions, and they often have some really interesting things to say.

Gary (13:48.367)
So as Tevyev said many years ago in the musical Fiddler on the Wolf, on the other hand, and on the other hand, and on the other hand, and on and on it went, faculty on one side, Joseph, finance on the other. And you mentioned valid points about what the roles faculty play. No question, no question at all. But at the end of the day, if payroll can't be met, if the lights can't be kept on, if the furnaces can't be fixed, then finance becomes an overriding issue.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (13:52.334)
Love that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (14:13.366)
Agreed. Yep.

Gary (14:17.903)
And this is a discussion I know I have in the coming months and probably coming years. Finance at the end of the day always rules. Now, I understand faculty handbooks, I think they're called faculty handbooks, or what they are. They have rules about what can be done. No question, because the first time faculty protest, they grab that handbook and they say, you can't do that because it's not in the handbook. But at what point does that focus on older guidelines?

impact a college's ability to respond. And before I turn it back over to you, I'm aware of the challenges. And one of the versions of the 2024 College Viability app that I released this week is one for faculty and staff. I know they don't have access to the information they need, and I'm trying to make that available through the IPEDS reports, Joseph.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (15:02.67)
Right. Well, yeah, and it's really fair. I think it's a fair statement to say that, fortunately, most faculty are not sort of top of mind with being concerned about how are we going to keep the lights on. And that's by design. The administrators and others are focused on that, the economic side of things, so that the faculty can do what they do best, research, teaching, and service. But...

With that said, you're right, economics plays a huge role. We have to pay our bills, we have to keep the lights on. But faculty, when they're engaged in their shared governance, Gary, can lend expertise and insight and a perspective that many administrators, you know, they simply don't have. So I would argue it's better when we have shared governance.

And we have the kinds of robust discussions and even arguments that can help us to get to where we need to be in terms of decision making. The problem is when administrators make decisions in a vacuum, in the dark, without input, that's when you get faculty up in arms to say, hey, we are being disempowered here.

Gary (16:24.303)
You know, this is such a big topic. I'm going to create a new point of reference for us, Joseph. I'm going to call this a shelf, this item. Let's put this puppy on the shelf and get back to that again and coming on the podcast because there's so, yeah. So we're going to shelf this and let's make sure we use that term on a regular basis because, you know, I poke, I know this and I was doing an interview with somebody yesterday from the major publications in higher education and I shared with them, I know that I am poking.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (16:33.038)
I'd love to. It deserves more attention for sure.

Gary (16:51.823)
the leadership bearer in colleges. And I know I am poking the faculty bearer in colleges. And I do that mostly not really on the podcast that you and I do a little bit, but on my This Week in College Viability podcast, I poke them a lot because I guess I accept the role to be able to say, guys, let's think about doing this another way. And then our final story. In the category of how to screw up a college, Webster University,

here in St. Louis has been in the local newspapers, the St. Louis Post -Dispatch since last summer sometime when they didn't make rent payments on a facility they had in downtown St. Louis. And it's gone to hell, excuse me for that, since then. Here's the story this week. Webster University, Joseph, is in such financial straits that they went to the bond market to borrow money, which that's not a big deal.

But to have the proper ratios for the bond, they had to go to many thousands, I'm guessing, if not hundreds, of donors who gave dedicated scholarship endowment funds to the Gary and Joseph podcast fund, I'll tease about it for a second. And Webster is going to these folks saying, hey, we need your funds to meet the ratios that our bond holders are requiring of us. Joseph, just indescribably silly and stupid.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (18:19.318)
I couldn't agree more, Gary. Stop the presses, right? You and I are in complete agreement on this. The challenge with development and advancement is that it's founded upon one thing more than anything else, and that's trust. When you work with a generous donor who gives...

of himself or herself in terms of their financial resources or other resources, they're expecting that there won't be a bait and switch, that what they give, it's given for a particular goal and that goal will be honored. And that's not happening here. You know, I was really fortunate to be involved in some pretty large gifts in the past and I can tell you,

Trust is everything with with donors and it doesn't matter how big or how small the gift is You you've got to maintain trust and to to really kind of shift gears like this It's it's I hate to use this term, but it to me it seems almost like a bait and switch the other You know the problem is is it is it? Is it sort of a question of competence in terms of?

Gary (19:32.591)
I like that too. Yeah, I like that.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (19:41.838)
the management of the system. And I don't want to come off being too hard on these administrators because I don't know them, of course. But boy, you've got to maintain that trust and that's not any way to do it.

Gary (19:58.351)
And I'll wrap up this discussion with just something I had on my notes as you were talking, Joseph, and that we talk about poking the bears and that's fine. And one of the concerns I have, and we have to shelf this one as well for another day, is, you know, I do a lot of research, writing podcasts on higher education and leadership. And I worry on a regular basis. Well, first of all, there are many, many strong leaders in higher education, but that's not my concern. My concern is there are way too many not capable.

of managing the organizations they've been hired, usually at nice compensation rates. They're not capable of running that. And maybe that's what we're seeing at Webster. Birmingham Southern College is another one that jumps to mind. And I've got a long list of those, maybe for another day. What if, and I'll make this a rhetorical question before I wrap this up. What if there are too many Joseph in capable leaders in higher education?

That's it. I'm going to the scoreboard. And if I had a drum roll, Joseph, I would roll the drums right now. My score shows Dr. Joseph Polito Jr. with four good points and the cold snowed in Gary Stocker with two. So Joseph, there you go. Your first clear win on the scoreboard in our back and forth discussion.

Joseph Pellerito Jr. (21:17.774)
Well, I think the technical foul might have helped me this time around, Gary, but this was fun.

Gary (21:24.719)
So my congratulations, we'll get you your certificate sometime soon. That will wrap up this episode of College Counterpoints. My name is Gary Stocker, always with the talented Dr. Joseph Pellerito Jr. Hey, let's do this again soon. Good night. Good day.